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Post by StormyPinkness on Oct 4, 2011 8:29:28 GMT -8
As I said, I understand why but don't necessarily think this is very effective.
A friend of mine said today on Facebook:
"Fox News is calling Occupy Wallstreet unpatriotic, Michael Savage is calling the protestors vermin. I can't think of a clearer indication that Occupy Wallstreet is doing the right thing."
So I guess I think that the point is visibility and making some kind of noise.
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Post by emptyfox on Oct 4, 2011 8:31:07 GMT -8
The point is to not be complacent in your own demise at the hands of 1% of the population.
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Post by StormyPinkness on Oct 4, 2011 9:00:05 GMT -8
Exactly. So I guess if your options are make some noise or don't make some noise then you should make some fucking noise.
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Post by Cbats on Oct 4, 2011 9:02:37 GMT -8
Womp, just to clarify, Elizabeth Warren is running for senate, she's not actually a senator yet. Obama tried to appoint her to head the new consumer protection agency we created but the republicans blocked her appointment.
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Post by StormyPinkness on Oct 4, 2011 9:04:09 GMT -8
Dey tuk oooor jerrrrbs
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Post by wompwomp on Oct 4, 2011 9:08:14 GMT -8
Womp, just to clarify, Elizabeth Warren is running for senate, she's not actually a senator yet. Obama tried to appoint her to head the new consumer protection agency we created but the republicans blocked her appointment. Ahhh, gotcha. Good ole Republican partisanship. |
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Post by davers on Oct 4, 2011 10:14:24 GMT -8
Why are they protesting in Canada? We have one of the best and most respected banking systems in the world. As much as I wish this was true, it isnt. The only reason we havent had the same problems as the US is because our housing market hasnt collapsed... yet. Banks here have the same horrible ratios of debt to actual assets (something like 23 to 1). The worst part is that most mortgages in Canada are insured by the CMHC (Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation) which is part of our government. So, if we do have a big housing collapse, tax payers are on the hook for over $600 billion worth or mortgages if people default. So I guess the banks will be ok, since they arent really responsible if people cant pay their mortgages. They just foreclose on the home, sell it for less and the government makes up the difference. IMO this is far more reason for outrage, but I dont think many people know this. Another reason people may want to protest in Canada is the financial markets are all connected so the more anger there is worldwide the more likely there will be a change on a global level. Lots of people seem to know that the financial system in general is one big scam with money being created out of thin air, so the more buzz that can be generated about people being upset about it, the better. Still, I think these protests have far too many people protesting for too many different reasons. A petition with a very clear statement would probably have more of an effect. But I do appreciate the overall message that greed is bad and these people need to be held accountable. |
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Post by wompwomp on Oct 4, 2011 10:58:39 GMT -8
Why are they protesting in Canada? We have one of the best and most respected banking systems in the world. As much as I wish this was true, it isnt. The only reason we havent had the same problems as the US is because our housing market hasnt collapsed... yet. Banks here have the same horrible ratios of debt to actual assets (something like 23 to 1). The worst part is that most mortgages in Canada are insured by the CMHC (Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation) which is part of our government. So, if we do have a big housing collapse, tax payers are on the hook for over $600 billion worth or mortgages if people default. So I guess the banks will be ok, since they arent really responsible if people cant pay their mortgages. They just foreclose on the home, sell it for less and the government makes up the difference. IMO this is far more reason for outrage, but I dont think many people know this. Yeah, that's not correct. Canada's banks are regulated so they can not take on that much debt. The number you are looking for is capital to debt, which is regulated at 7% in Canda. The international standard is 4%. The CMHC is part of the reason Canada pulled through this recession quite favourably. They have effectively banned sub-prime mortgages (I believe if you pay less than 3% down you need insurance) and they do not allow predatory lending, which are two of the root causes of this fucking mess going on down South. EDIT: alright found the subrpime mortgage stuff for CMHC: to qualify for a mortgage that you pay less than 5% down, 40% of your yearly income must cover the mortgage. |
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Post by Fig on Oct 4, 2011 11:55:27 GMT -8
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Post by Fig on Oct 4, 2011 12:08:35 GMT -8
Hmmm I have found what is being touted as an "official statement" from the general assembly of the protesters in Liberty Square.
Official Statement from Occupy Wall Street - this statement was voted on and approved by the general assembly of protesters at Liberty Square: Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
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Post by StormyPinkness on Oct 4, 2011 13:09:15 GMT -8
The funny (not that funny) thing is that I actually probably would go... were I not having to go work for my corporate job where I have not had a raise in three years, had salary and benefits cut, watched hundreds of people get laid off, and whose executives still banked huge bonuses during this time. ISN'T IT IRONIC?!? DON'T YOU THINK?!?
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Post by davers on Oct 4, 2011 14:15:36 GMT -8
Yeah, that's not correct. Canada's banks are regulated so they can not take on that much debt. The number you are looking for is capital to debt, which is regulated at 7% in Canda. The international standard is 4%. The CMHC is part of the reason Canada pulled through this recession quite favourably. They have effectively banned sub-prime mortgages (I believe if you pay less than 3% down you need insurance) and they do not allow predatory lending, which are two of the root causes of this fucking mess going on down South. EDIT: alright found the subrpime mortgage stuff for CMHC: to qualify for a mortgage that you pay less than 5% down, 40% of your yearly income must cover the mortgage. You may be right about the 7% thing, but the only reason they are able to swing that is because the CMHC assumes all of the risk on mortgages they write from what I understand. In late 2008 when Canada went into recession along with the rest of the world the goverment went into panic mode and doubled the lending power of the CMHC. This made banks go on a lending spree because the CMHC was insuring just about every loan under the sun. There are certain rules they are supposed to follow but I know for a fact that there are ways around them. A co worker of mine bought a house in 2009 using his before tax income including overtime (which was 30%+ of his salary) to buy a home. If next year he happened to get less OT he would have a lot of trouble covering that mortgage. There are countless stories like this which is all but proven by the fact that the average price of a house in Vancouver is ~$1.1 million (yeah the average, run of the mill home) and the average household income is around $75K. If enough people cant pay their mortgages then they default and the CMHC insurance pays out. The CMHC has something like $24 billion in assets and they cover over $600 billion worth of mortgages. It is hard to say what will happen if/when Canada's housing market crashes, but it is very possible. In 08-09 Vancouver fell ~15% in 8 months which is faster than any market in the US fell. The only reason we came back is because of record low interest rates and a now gigantic CMHC backing it all up. OK I'll shut up now. There are financial blogs for this crap. |
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Post by Fig on Oct 4, 2011 14:39:02 GMT -8
Going to the OWS:Boise council meeting in a few. Will report back with intel.
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Post by Friendly Destroyer on Oct 4, 2011 14:41:14 GMT -8
Yeah, that's not correct. Canada's banks are regulated so they can not take on that much debt. The number you are looking for is capital to debt, which is regulated at 7% in Canda. The international standard is 4%. The CMHC is part of the reason Canada pulled through this recession quite favourably. They have effectively banned sub-prime mortgages (I believe if you pay less than 3% down you need insurance) and they do not allow predatory lending, which are two of the root causes of this fucking mess going on down South. EDIT: alright found the subrpime mortgage stuff for CMHC: to qualify for a mortgage that you pay less than 5% down, 40% of your yearly income must cover the mortgage. You may be right about the 7% thing, but the only reason they are able to swing that is because the CMHC assumes all of the risk on mortgages they write from what I understand. In late 2008 when Canada went into recession along with the rest of the world the goverment went into panic mode and doubled the lending power of the CMHC. This made banks go on a lending spree because the CMHC was insuring just about every loan under the sun. There are certain rules they are supposed to follow but I know for a fact that there are ways around them. A co worker of mine bought a house in 2009 using his before tax income including overtime (which was 30%+ of his salary) to buy a home. If next year he happened to get less OT he would have a lot of trouble covering that mortgage. There are countless stories like this which is all but proven by the fact that the average price of a house in Vancouver is ~$1.1 million (yeah the average, run of the mill home) and the average household income is around $75K. If enough people cant pay their mortgages then they default and the CMHC insurance pays out. The CMHC has something like $24 billion in assets and they cover over $600 billion worth of mortgages. It is hard to say what will happen if/when Canada's housing market crashes, but it is very possible. In 08-09 Vancouver fell ~15% in 8 months which is faster than any market in the US fell. The only reason we came back is because of record low interest rates and a now gigantic CMHC backing it all up. OK I'll shut up now. There are financial blogs for this crap. Don't apologize dude, thanks for all the info! |
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Post by emptyfox on Oct 4, 2011 14:45:56 GMT -8
Yeah, that's not correct. Canada's banks are regulated so they can not take on that much debt. The number you are looking for is capital to debt, which is regulated at 7% in Canda. The international standard is 4%. The CMHC is part of the reason Canada pulled through this recession quite favourably. They have effectively banned sub-prime mortgages (I believe if you pay less than 3% down you need insurance) and they do not allow predatory lending, which are two of the root causes of this fucking mess going on down South. EDIT: alright found the subrpime mortgage stuff for CMHC: to qualify for a mortgage that you pay less than 5% down, 40% of your yearly income must cover the mortgage. You may be right about the 7% thing, but the only reason they are able to swing that is because the CMHC assumes all of the risk on mortgages they write from what I understand. In late 2008 when Canada went into recession along with the rest of the world the goverment went into panic mode and doubled the lending power of the CMHC. This made banks go on a lending spree because the CMHC was insuring just about every loan under the sun. There are certain rules they are supposed to follow but I know for a fact that there are ways around them. A co worker of mine bought a house in 2009 using his before tax income including overtime (which was 30%+ of his salary) to buy a home. If next year he happened to get less OT he would have a lot of trouble covering that mortgage. There are countless stories like this which is all but proven by the fact that the average price of a house in Vancouver is ~$1.1 million (yeah the average, run of the mill home) and the average household income is around $75K. If enough people cant pay their mortgages then they default and the CMHC insurance pays out. The CMHC has something like $24 billion in assets and they cover over $600 billion worth of mortgages. It is hard to say what will happen if/when Canada's housing market crashes, but it is very possible. In 08-09 Vancouver fell ~15% in 8 months which is faster than any market in the US fell. The only reason we came back is because of record low interest rates and a now gigantic CMHC backing it all up. OK I'll shut up now. There are financial blogs for this crap. Fantastic post. |
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Post by Fig on Oct 4, 2011 14:50:49 GMT -8
Indeed davers, thanks for the lesson! You as well womp. I know little of the political and economic landscape of our northern neighbors
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Post by StormyPinkness on Oct 4, 2011 14:59:51 GMT -8
Well, we may not topple the mighty powers that be, but at least we all learned a little something.
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Post by Fig on Oct 4, 2011 18:21:43 GMT -8
So the OWS:Boise general council meeting was pretty awesome. They've only been meeting for a week and already have subcommittees, including a legal committee which is currently training legal observers who will be marching tomorrow not as participants but as legal witnesses employed by OWS:Boise's lawyer in order to act as witnesses in court in case anyone should be arrested. Now this is my first time observing any sort of protest so I'm not sure if this is standard but it struck me as very smart and professional.
This march tomorrow is simply the beginning of what is hopefully to be a long campaign. Whether or not it will last remains to be seen but I hope it does. I've made the decision to be active in the movement because if nothing else, I'd be a really shitty student of sociology if I missed out on what could be a once in a lifetime thing. It seems to be picking up steam and I hope it continues to. Maybe its just the collective effervescence of it all but I've been sold on it.
If anybody has any questions I'd love to try and answer them. No, I won't be blacked out and wrapped in police caution tape during the march. Hopefully.
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Post by J-Dawg on Oct 4, 2011 19:23:12 GMT -8
Yeah, I never really understood the crazy housing market in Vancouver. Even in Calgary it's pretty strange these days. I bought my condo for $180K in 2006 (borrowed about $140K of that), and it's now worth $350K. Even borrowing $140K on my salary back then made me nervous, and the banks were more than willing to lend me another $100K if I felt like I needed it. I decided to borrow what I thought was suitable for me, and luckily at the time (2006 in Calgary) I could actually buy a fairly nice condo right downtown for that price. Nowadays, not so much... And how is it possible for my place to almost double in value in only 5 years, anyways? Housing bubble much?
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Post by emptyfox on Oct 4, 2011 19:29:37 GMT -8
Awesome Fig. They have very similar organization up here from what I'm reading, and I believe that most decent organized protest would be run this way.
Now, if there was a way to ensure that the Black Bloc would stay home so that we could be more certain that our disobedience would be civil, I would be more inclined to participate. This is the first time in a long time that I've felt the need to get involved, but I'm more than a little apprehensive considering my city's (and my Country's) track record.
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