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Post by Shaxspear III Esq. on Apr 27, 2011 10:05:00 GMT -8
Very good points. But alcoholism and drug abuse also affects those around the person with the disease and they don't have a choice in the matter. Also, so we're clear, I'm not debating the sexism. I knew he was going to get called out on that avatar.
And fox, when I walk into the Internet, I go in knowing that there will be people with varying levels of crassness and sensitivity. We're all individuals and you can't please all of the people all of the time.
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Post by StormyPinkness on Apr 27, 2011 10:13:23 GMT -8
Very good points. But alcoholism and drug abuse also affects those around the person with the disease and they don't have a choice in the matter. Fair enough. I imagine you would get a different answer from every person you talked to. I think that is why we should be able to have a discussion about without feeling bad or making fun.
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Post by Space_Suitor on Apr 27, 2011 10:14:36 GMT -8
I'm kind of curious what kind of work you do, Stormy, where you are treated unfairly.
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Post by Horned Gramma on Apr 27, 2011 10:15:17 GMT -8
I think comedy and sarcasm don't translate very well sometimes too, and this definitely creates more problems. Only for some.
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Post by StormyPinkness on Apr 27, 2011 10:18:36 GMT -8
I'm kind of curious what kind of work you do, Stormy, where you are treated unfairly. This is not specific to just at my job, or at any specific job. I work in IT, however, and it is definitely more prevalent than in other professions I have seen. You have to work twice as hard to be taken seriously. I would like to say that it is important to remember that it is not only in the workplace that I - and other females- am treated differently.
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Post by Space_Suitor on Apr 27, 2011 10:30:51 GMT -8
I'm kind of curious what kind of work you do, Stormy, where you are treated unfairly. This is not specific to just at my job, or at any specific job. I work in IT, however, and it is definitely more prevalent than in other professions I have seen. You have to work twice as hard to be taken seriously. That's cos men don't like it when women have all the answers!
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Post by Catherine Sun Chips on Apr 27, 2011 10:31:58 GMT -8
It is seen in the work place very often with me, too. My sexist co-worker thought he would make a funny and add a zinger to our conversation a few weeks ago: He brings his shitty Pomeranian to work and it barks up a storm, making me like little dogs less and less. He was getting annoyed with his dog barking and made some comment about how he wished there was a way to remove its vocal cords. I can't confirm this, but I heard that in China(?) it is a somewhat common practice to surgically remove a dogs vocal cords, much like we would get our pet neutered or spayed. When I told him this, he then turned to me and said, "oh yeah, can we do this to women, too?" He left the room laughing as I sat there fuming. this is the same co-worker who found it appropriate to drag us to a strip club on a business trip. I have memories of men touching my leg or even got bold enough as to grab my ass when I used to be a server in college. I've had men lean out of their cars to whistle at me while walking down the sidewalk. I catch men looking at my boobs or butt when I am wearing more than respectable clothing on a regular basis. And no, I don't find that flattering when I am trying to carry a conversation. I HATE it when guys assume I should be flattered. I don't want to turn this into a forum where all girls complain about sexism and objectification, but I think sometimes that there is more suppression than some realize. And that's why I found myself offended by the avatar.
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Post by StormyPinkness on Apr 27, 2011 10:38:02 GMT -8
Preach.
I have salespeople talking to my husband instead of me when I am the one buying something. When I used to work in tech support I had people who asked to speak to a male who would know what they are talking about. I really could go on and on but I won't. The point is that it is accepted to treat people like this and it is not ok.
But I also argue that lots of people are sexist against males and that is not ok either. Take for example that awful show Two and a Half Men. That is sexist against males just as much as females and I think more people should be offended.
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HecticDialectic
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Post by HecticDialectic on Apr 27, 2011 10:40:50 GMT -8
And those things *are* all objectification, which no one here is against or thinks is funny. Those aren't you choice, and as you mentioned they are imposed upon you despite the fact that you have just as much right to be respected as anyone else.
A pornstar's bouncing bum is *not* objectification, because it is voluntary- in fact said pornstar wouldn't make any money if men weren't willing to treat her like an object. It's a tricky grey area, but adding consensual behavior to the concept of objectification makes it a useless one- the problem is when it bleeds over into how we treat other people with whom we are not engage in a social contract where objectification is part of the deal.
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HecticDialectic
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Post by HecticDialectic on Apr 27, 2011 10:41:50 GMT -8
As for finding sexism funny, I don't, except in limited comedic circumstances where context makes it funny. What I do find funny is the same reason I think the reaction to pedo-bear is amusing- it's the off the cuff over-reaction to anything that could be connected with what are legitimately problem behaviors
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Post by Catherine Sun Chips on Apr 27, 2011 10:47:03 GMT -8
And those things *are* all objectification, which no one here is against or thinks is funny. Those aren't you choice, and as you mentioned they are imposed upon you despite the fact that you have just as much right to be respected as anyone else. A pornstar's bouncing bum is *not* objectification, because it is voluntary- in fact said pornstar wouldn't make any money if men weren't willing to treat her like an object. It's a tricky grey area, but adding consensual behavior to the concept of objectification makes it a useless one- the problem is when it bleeds over into how we treat other people with whom we are not engage in a social contract where objectification is part of the deal. I don't want to get into a porn debate with you. I really don't. I could argue how terrible it is for the female population for years. but please know that I don't find your argument a respectable argument, because the fact that she's getting paid to be objectified, is almost worse. We all know the porn industry is trashy, but men are still humongous consumers. Sexual acts performed on women such as deliberately ejaculating on a woman's face for a male's visual and sexual pleasure isn't considered objectification because the woman is getting paid for it?
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HecticDialectic
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Post by HecticDialectic on Apr 27, 2011 10:51:53 GMT -8
Would the same consensual act between two partners where the woman was not being paid be considered objectification? What if the girl was really into it?
This is the slippery area I'm talking about- it's when the effects of things like pornography bleed over into things that directly effect your life that it becomes problematic. There are however people that are fully capable of discriminating between the two categories of behaviors.
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Post by StormyPinkness on Apr 27, 2011 10:53:43 GMT -8
Agreed that I do not find that to be a valid argument and I also am not going to open this can of worms. Suffice it to say that not only do I think that porn is objectifying, that avatar had no context and how was I even supposed to make that connection? I will add that I don't think it is ever funny, regardless of the circumstances.
So, costume thread, I will be dressed up as the lady who is having a great time and partying and yelling "SASQUATCH!!!" really loud and also thinks we can all have a great time without being jerks. In the immortal words of Ray Smuckles, "No one should be a cock to a stranger, ever!"
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HecticDialectic
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Post by HecticDialectic on Apr 27, 2011 11:04:18 GMT -8
Step 1: Want women Step 2: Step 3: Profit
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Post by interstateeight on Apr 27, 2011 11:09:58 GMT -8
I'm just gonna pop in to say two quick things:
1.) Louis CK has a bit about trying to reclaim the word "******" or some stupid shit. Comedians say lots of things and are not the arbiters of taste on this board.
2.) I know you're stoked because you just finished your sophomore philosophy class or something, but you need to stop talking like that. It is impossible to read your posts because whenever someone says "juxtaposition" seriously, my eyes roll so far back in my head that I can only stare at my brain, which is actually a pretty impressive defense mechanism. I have a personal rule against modifying posters' content, but since we generally accept that when someone personally attacks another poster, I'll give serious thought to modifying the rule to include brutal attacks on not sounding like a pompous douchebag.
(Note: Clearly I just set myself up here, so if you're going to take a swing, make sure you don't fuck it up. I may just delete any attempts by posters who are not HG, stamper, FD, or the other mods.)
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HecticDialectic
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Post by HecticDialectic on Apr 27, 2011 11:13:45 GMT -8
I'm at work writing a manuscript for submission, sorry if academic babble leaks over into the way I type I here. That being said, I don't think that using smaller words is necessarily a good way to make an argument better.
And I wasn't planning on taking a swing at any one in any sense, my only even quasi rude comment regarding anyone specific was a stick-in-rectum remark. I leave the ad hominems to others.
And I'm a Psychology Master's student; not a philosophy undergrad, although I'm 2 courses short of my BA in Phil as well.
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Post by interstateeight on Apr 27, 2011 11:14:38 GMT -8
I'm 2 courses short of my BA in Phil as well. I'm still taking points for calling it.
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HecticDialectic
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Post by HecticDialectic on Apr 27, 2011 11:17:18 GMT -8
That's fine. I can't say I really consider writing well and using big words or arguing like a philosopher an insult; in fact I think it's a pretty amazing compliment.
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Post by Horned Gramma on Apr 27, 2011 11:17:53 GMT -8
Nobody said that you write well. All I see is a guy using the same four vocabulary words over and over and over again.
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HecticDialectic
Howling Windigo
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Post by HecticDialectic on Apr 27, 2011 11:18:25 GMT -8
It's true, I clearly write terrible. Thank you once again for your amazing and insightful input.
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