Odd future is certainly not for everyone but the backlash against them is almost comical. There is a lot of merit in their music and it's not Marilyn Manson or ICP.
I will say it is 100% exactly like Manson. I'm not trying to provoke you cbats, but I am curious to how you think it differs? And what do you find compelling or interesting?
mostly talent. I understand where the comparison comes from and if Goblin becomes a trend then I will certainly be eating my words in a few years but what originally excited people about odd future was how different they were than mainstream hip hop. A lot of the things they rap about are pathetically juvenile but there is an energy in their music that is really exciting. More importantly, at 19 or 20 tyler at least is writing some really personal songs that help to contextualize some of the more absurd shit he says. Ignoring the lyrics, his production style is really good and this is before he has access to any real studio equipment.
I know that getting co-signs but famous artists isn't a perfect way to say that your music is great but the people who are giving tyler props for his music are all rappers that I really like. Mos Def is borderline stalking them, Pusha T from the clipse is doing a song with them, they recorded some tracks with Pharell, Das Racist are big fans, the roots love them. Are all of these people completely blinded by the hype as well?
Post by Horned Gramma on May 14, 2011 15:15:03 GMT -5
My point is that of course Mos Def and Pusha T are going to try to work with OFWGKTA because they're the hot new shit. That's been the primary method of maintaining relevance for aging rappers for decades.
And let's not pretend for a minute that there's not even less of a difference between Tyler and Eminem than there is between Tyler and Manson.
Post by Friendly Destroyer on May 14, 2011 15:19:05 GMT -5
I guess I don't see how being juvenile and using shock tactics is "different". Criticism aside, I just want to say that on a personal level the "Tyler love" concerns me (not on some great grand scale, so relax). As base and juvenile as groups like ICP are, I can at least get and understand why their intended audience is so enraptured with them. ICP is blatantly making music for the "lost", they aren't giving them anything constructive or valuable by any means. It just is what it is. But I'm left thinking, who is Tyler's intended audience? All the accolades from big name hip hop stars only concerns me more, because it lends a credit to their "packaged misfitdom" that is not being catered to the "Family Values Tour", but to the Coachella crowds. Maybe some one can help me out here, but the idea that upper and middle class (lets face it, white) kids are the intended audience doesn't sit well with me. At least with Manson you knew the kids in makeup and coloured contacts were gonna dwindle down very quickly (and were pretty much harmless).
EDIT: I'm not saying I want this to be intended for any other type of audience when I signal out "white". Just saying that the ICP and Manson kids weren't exactly the popular crowd whose opinions mattered in High Schools and what not.
That was a stronger reaction than just plain old hating it. I spent all day yesterday trying to figure out why that album made me so angry (and I'm not hearing a word about "if you're responding to it in that way then maybe it is having its desired effect" because no). I'm used to people enjoying being pandered to and I don't begrudge anyone their Lady Gaga or their [insert name of talentless mega-star], but I feel like it says something unpleasant about you as a person if you'd defend even five seconds of Goblin.
I'm not buying that stuff about "learning about being nineteen in 2011", either. Ten, fifteen years ago, Tyler, the Creator was called Marilyn Manson. Same/same, A=B. Shock me shock me shock me with that deviant behavior! There was this great story in the Onion once about Marilyn Manson being forced to go door to door in the suburbs doing shit like crucifying himself upside-down while being fellated by goats in order to perpetuate suburban moms' conviction that he was the anti-Christ so the kids would continue buying his records out of a sense of rebellion.
Loving these ridiculous staged "riots" and "arrests" that seem to be happening wherever Tyler goes? "Ya hurrrrrd? Tyler got arrested jus' for skateboarding!" Suck my balls. Notice how many of those nineteen year old kids at the "riot" outside of Newbury Comics in Boston had actual physical copies of Goblin in their hands? That makes about as much sense as a flash mob of people dressed in Red, White and Blue appearing outside the White House gates less than ten minutes after the announcement of Bin Laden's "death".
Aren't you people tired of being manipulated yet? Ugh.
I once said in the Record A Day thread, Gramma reviewing albums he doesn't like would be equally if not more entertaining than him reviewing albums he does like. Not to take anything away from the positive album reviews, they're great, but when all the internet rage gets directed at a particular musical entity he hates, it's gold.
I think maybe the hardest part to explain is that when i got into 6 months ago they weren't manufactured. I see why it seems like they are these days but one of the most exciting things about them is how organic their whole creation was.
They do have a cult of personality that is following them these days are it's something that I hope fades away soon. The difference between ICP and Odd Future is that when all of the swag and free earl chants end, Odd Future still has some damn good music. Without the theatrics ICP has nothing.
I think saying this is the same as Manson is the same as ICP (or even saying that Bieber=NSync=NKOTB) is the real simplification. It's not like you're the only person paying attention to the trends and noticing patterns, HG - "shocking" stuff like this comes along, gets big, fades away. That's pretty easy to recognize. But to just disregard something as the next something else is pretty narrow-minded.
Someone asked, what's the difference? Uhm, huge fucking differences between Odd Future and Manson. For one, they're black, and they're totally bucking so many trends of the black hip-hop culture they grew up in. Marilyn Manson came from a majority culture, and his backlash was against it.
Second, as cbats said better than I can, the "shock factor" isn't a big part of their music. Wu Tang rapped about some more heinous shit on a bigger stage fifteen years ago than Odd Future are now. If you can't get past someone rapping about murder or rape, you probably can't listen to most rap at all. I AM NOT JUSTIFYING THE SUBJECT MATTER, I'm just saying it's really nothing new, and it doesn't do much for me beyond annoying me.
Third, it really isn't manufactured. This album was released on XL, they don't have a major record label telling them what to do or what they should sound like. Their image, sound, themes, everything is their own, and to say that the arrests and riots are staged is purely conjecture - and I'm also not attracted to it, because again, that's not really very shocking either. Tyler has also pushed back against the embrace a lot of the hip hop community has given him (with the exception of Pusha T)
I feel sorry for people that are in love with ICP because those are people that have been made to feel like outsiders their entire lives by the culture they grew up in (mostly suburban white culture for those people). If there are people infatuated with Odd Future to the same level, they probably feel like Tyler does during a lot of his songs. You're right, FD, that he has the emotional maturity of a very young person, but you know what, that's a voice I don't hear very often (especially in combination with some awesome production and occasionally good rapping), and it intrigues me.
Post by Horned Gramma on May 14, 2011 17:45:03 GMT -5
Anyway, the Tyler/Manson comparison is based solely on the fact that the music is entirely hollow aside from all the ugliness. If you took away the references to rape, murder and Taylor Swfit's perennial meat stable it would be like a ballet without the dancing. FOR THE MOST PART, whatever deeply insightful introspection you guys claim Tyler does on Goblin is probably a tiny percentage of the material on there, and you all claim you have to sift for it anyway. I don't care what segment of society they are railing against, it doesn't matter. The product is the same and the way I see it race politics have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Soo.... sorry to bring this back on Topic-ish, but here's what's spinning today. I've apparently been in a mellow mood.
Chris Botti - When I fall in Love Ben Webster & Oscar Peterson - The Legendary Sessions Massive Attack - Blue Lines Thievery Corporation - The Mirror Conspiracy Thievery Corporation - The Cosmic Game Lemon Jelly - Lost Horizons
Post by Horned Gramma on May 15, 2011 0:10:52 GMT -5
Is it REALLY more about who's right and who's wrong than it is about the process of discussion to you people? I'd really like to know if ive been getting that wrong this whole time. Might explain why people get so bitchy with me. I guess.